5/08/2008

...the fuck?! PONY!


Okay Hivemind, riddle me this...

How, the FUCK, am I supposed to react to the written skidsmarks you monocleclub wankers have left in my comments? tell me this. I've got Ren asserting that some physical law of the fucking universe forbids me from objecting to anything she says, Octogalore fails at life (again, I would not want ot be you when you reincarnate...) with both another failed attempt at grammar criticism (I speak vernacular english Octagalore! get the fuck over this concept already) and some classic bad faith arguement in form of the hoary old "conspiracy theory" chestnut.

*le sigh*

I've got Daisy mad at me because of, I fuck you not, a misplaced hyphen and Ravenm failing at Ally work quite spectacularly.

But it's the good kind of failier, you know, the kind that is wrong in that way taht is begs for a correction that is oh so right.

Folks, MLK has explained this already; it is very easy to trick a POC, you just have to make them trust your crackery ass and then punished them for that misplaced trust.

It's a side effect of living in a racist, white supremicist society, where it is literally beaten into POC's heads that white opinions are far far more valid than their own, where white voices are given room while POC voices are shouted down.

Being an ally means creating spaces where POC are accomodated and treated like equals, so when, after several years in which Ren has humored every crazy ass MRA and white racist misogynist that felt like posting a comment on her blog, she decides to pick out and hold up for ridicule - how dare Kate tell you that a phrase you use makes your blog a hostile place for her! The nerve of the chink Other! She almost acts like she doesn't ph33r your We-sha-sha! the impudence of it! - a POC who was just expressing how something Ren said made her feel, I am obligated to make some noise about that, and too keep making a noise about that because silence is what the racist society needs me to produce to enable it's bullshit.

And the absolute ally-vacuum into which I shouted in that comment thread is... well that's what "the silence of our freinds" thing MEANS you idiot white people. And far be it from me to point fingers, but could someone please remind me why, despite the fact that I, unlike "radical" folks like Daisy, am not a regular commenter at Ren the Magical Asian-jews's ethnically challenged asian lady's blog, I was the only one who called bullshit when Ren;

NOT ONLY, used the racist "Political Correctness" dogwhistle to silence and dehumanise a POC,

NOT ONLY co-opted the oppression experienced by asian americans so that she could use it like a commodity rather than the fucked up bullshit women like Kate have to put up with every fucking day of their lives that it actually is,

NOT ONLY then proceeded to pretend that she and her white regular commenters (like Amber) had authority enough to decide whether or not that POC was ALLOWED to be offended by something Ren said, when only a sociopath would presume that what a person feels is a debatable thing.

No agree to disagree there of course, and no allies hanging around that blog neither.

Let me now go off on a seeming tangent for second:

My objections as an anarchist to the monocle club are not to the group per se, but the power dynamics inherent to such exclusive secret clubs, linked into the same mechanisms for utilizing social capital that you find in Kos's townhouse group, or in the little club Vallenti and Marcotte formed a year or so back, or like the "safe spaces" Radfems are always using to fuck over sex workers and transexuals - And we can know that groups like this impose a hierarchy onto the social groups they arise from because that's what all the other groups have done, even though the other feminist groups who have these groups are, just like you guys, allegedly against such abusive power structures and hierarchies.

And yes, calling a safe space a "book club", or a hippo for that matter, doesn't actually change those underlying dyanmics and hierarchies.

My second major, philisophical problem you could say, with such groups is that they generally require an acceptance of what Marx in manifesto call "critical utopian socialism", and thus are inherently flawed and self restraining for the same reasons, and I cannot repeat what Mardx wrote better than him so I'll just quote the relevent section:

We do not here refer to that literature which, in every great modern revolution, has always given voice to the demands of the proletariat, such as the writings of Babeuf [4] and others.

The first direct attempts of the proletariat to attain its own ends, made in times of universal excitement, when feudal society was being overthrown, necessarily failed, owing to the then undeveloped state of the proletariat, as well as to the absence of the economic conditions for its emancipation, conditions that had yet to be produced, and could be produced by the impending bourgeois epoch alone. The revolutionary literature that accompanied these first movements of the proletariat had necessarily a reactionary character. It inculcated universal asceticism and social levelling in its crudest form.

The socialist and communist systems, properly so called, those of Saint-Simon [5], Fourier [6], Owen [7], and others, spring into existence in the early undeveloped period, described above, of the struggle between proletariat and bourgeoisie (see Section 1. Bourgeois and Proletarians).

The founders of these systems see, indeed, the class antagonisms, as well as the action of the decomposing elements in the prevailing form of society. But the proletariat, as yet in its infancy, offers to them the spectacle of a class without any historical initiative or any independent political movement.

Since the development of class antagonism keeps even pace with the development of industry, the economic situation, as they find it, does not as yet offer to them the material conditions for the emancipation of the proletariat. They therefore search after a new social science, after new social laws, that are to create these conditions.

Historical action is to yield to their personal inventive action; historically created conditions of emancipation to fantastic ones; and the gradual, spontaneous class organization of the proletariat to an organization of society especially contrived by these inventors. Future history resolves itself, in their eyes, into the propaganda and the practical carrying out of their social plans.

In the formation of their plans, they are conscious of caring chiefly for the interests of the working class, as being the most suffering class. Only from the point of view of being the most suffering class does the proletariat exist for them.

The undeveloped state of the class struggle, as well as their own surroundings, causes Socialists of this kind to consider themselves far superior to all class antagonisms. They want to improve the condition of every member of society, even that of the most favored. Hence, they habitually appeal to society at large, without the distinction of class; nay, by preference, to the ruling class. For how can people when once they understand their system, fail to see in it the best possible plan of the best possible state of society?

Hence, they reject all political, and especially all revolutionary action; they wish to attain their ends by peaceful means, necessarily doomed to failure, and by the force of example, to pave the way for the new social gospel.

Such fantastic pictures of future society, painted at a time when the proletariat is still in a very undeveloped state and has but a fantastic conception of its own position, correspond with the first instinctive yearnings of that class for a general reconstruction of society.

But these socialist and communist publications contain also a critical element. They attack every principle of existing society. Hence, they are full of the most valuable materials for the enlightenment of the working class. The practical measures proposed in them -- such as the abolition of the distinction between town and country, of the family, of the carrying on of industries for the account of private individuals, and of the wage system, the proclamation of social harmony, the conversion of the function of the state into a more superintendence of production -- all these proposals point solely to the disappearance of class antagonisms which were, at that time, only just cropping up, and which, in these publications, are recognized in their earliest indistinct and undefined forms only. These proposals, therefore, are of a purely utopian character.

The significance of critical-utopian socialism and communism bears an inverse relation to historical development. In proportion as the modern class struggle develops and takes definite shape, this fantastic standing apart from the contest, these fantastic attacks on it, lose all practical value and all theoretical justifications. Therefore, although the originators of these systems were, in many respects, revolutionary, their disciples have, in every case, formed mere reactionary sects. They hold fast by the original views of their masters, in opposition to the progressive historical development of the proletariat. They, therefore, endeavor, and that consistently, to deaden the class struggle and to reconcile the class antagonisms. They still dream of experimental realization of their social utopias, of founding isolated phalansteres, of establishing "Home Colonies", or setting up a "Little Icaria" [8] -- pocket editions of the New Jerusalem -- and to realize all these castles in the air, they are compelled to appeal to the feelings and purses of the bourgeois. By degrees, they sink into the category of the reactionary conservative socialists depicted above, differing from these only by more systematic pedantry, and by their fanatical and superstitious belief in the miraculous effects of their social science.

They, therefore, violently oppose all political action on the part of the working class; such action, according to them, can only result from blind unbelief in the new gospel.

The Owenites in England, and the Fourierists in France, respectively, oppose the Chartists and the Reformistes.


And So I must also object to your group on communist grounds.

Thirdly; As an ally I must again Object to your group on practical grounds. to summarize, no gated community ever changed the world.

That is largely my objection to the radfems' silly little safe spaces, you can't change hte world from outside, and if you think that you can build a shangri-la so awesome that unreconstructed crackers will flock to you and demand to be let in...well I have news for you, the crakcers like being crackers, more importantly the system that made them crackers in the first place is bigger, and weilds more of the power that these sorts of groups are trying to weild.

This is one way to intrepret Audre Lord's "you cannot demolish the master's house with the master's tools" - you don't take a knife to a gun fight, and if your opponent has more guns than you have, then going to a gun fight at all seems stupid.

And here's the thing that I suspect I've been leaving unspoken when I should have: surely there's a better way to do things than this?

You can't deconstruct privelage in a secret little exclusive group because privelage works by it being kept invisible - if your attempt to tackle privealge doesn't consist of being LOUD and being PUBLIC rather than polite and private it WILL fail, because of what privealge is and how it works.

More importantly you can't build a community from exclusivity - you partition off the conversation between allies and you stop the silent majority (the lurkers) from being able to gain anything from it, and you create a circle jerk.

And you try to pass that off as "ally work", as "SRS Anti-racist bizness", then well... don't.

Because that's the thing, I can't force you to listen, I can't force you to actually think or have an open and public conversation about this group, about what it should involve and the draw backs of various approachs, and how maybe you should set up checks and balances to stop abuses of power and to limit the degree of damage an unhealthy and uncritical social cohesion can bring about.

Because you have far more social capital than I can bring to bear, and you have more social captial than I am willing to accumulate to fight you all.

And while I suppose I could hack into your accounts, your email, your bank accounts and similar, and dredge up your personal details and basically utilize the exact same pre-existnt power structures that your group, as it stands, has been supportive of, I have a horrible sinking feeling that I'm morally obliged to take the higher ground. Also I is lazy and personal bank details has not got a flavor

But I don't expect you to listen, you've shown that you don't want to take anything I say in good faith, you would rather prefer to dismiss and dehumanize me to protect your clique, and you're free to do that I guess.

This is a public space and public spaces are, in our society, by definition, the "safe space" of assholes - sure the neo-nazis have to skulk around stormfront, but you visit most of the "big blogs", and you'll find that any talk about race, or sexism, or whatever and privelage will be quickly shut down, shouted down and then locked down, because there's nothing worse than being called "racist" or "sexist" and it's all so unfair to the poor opressed rich white guy.

Don't be the poor oppressed rich white guy, don't be self pitying.

And even more unfortunately the old saying goes that you can't teach a student who isn't willing to learn, so as of this moment please take it as read that I am no longer going to self identify as an "ally", considering that you guys will undoubtably drag the term through the mud, and make us whtie folk who give more of a shit about people rather than privelage look really fucking bad by association, during this year - even more so than you already have of course, thank you for that Ren and Amber - and I have no power to stop you.

So I guess you win? Or whatever this is exactly.

Bon apetit XXX

189 comments:

Daisy said...

I assure you, I am not angry over a misplaced hyphen. As far as punctuation goes, it takes at least a lost apostrophe to piss me off.

Just for the record.

Daisy said...
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belledame222 said...
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Renegade Evolution said...

Whatever, RM. I put a subject up for discussion, then agreed to NOT use the particular phrase unless it was around a limited group including my family, and, oh, Min. Because I don't want to offend Kate or other people who feel that way. Stone me to death already. And I find it cute to get lectured and torn apart on the matter by..you...who can never be wrong about shit apparently. Must be nice.

And if I horribly piss off the PoC who comment on my blog, they are free to tell me so, and on occasion, have. But do I need you lecturing me about shit with all the other crap going on in life and what not? Nah, not really. And frankly, the last several times you've commented at all on my blog? It's been to rip me apart and basically call me an idiot. Frankly, I don't need that shit, from enemies or allies or whatever, including can do no wrong professors of the people, like you.

And oddly enough, RM, I can appoligize when I'm a raging ass. You might try it on, see how it fits.

And yep, MRA's occasionally comment at my place. And I call them out and mock them.

If ONE statement with racial conotations that I put up for discussion on my blog is worth hanging me over, fine, to the gallows and shit. But hey, your nice little mock there about how one can be Jewish and have some Asian background too counts, I'll see you there.

Daisy said...

you would rather prefer to dismiss and dehumanize me

You mean like dismissing someone with 35 years of activism as "someone who wears a Che Guevara shirt"?

I shouldn't let assholes like you make me cry, RM, but you do, especially on Mother's Day, when my mother is dead and my daughter and granddaughter are 1500 miles away. I come online for some friendship, can't you fucking understand THAT?

FUCK YOU TOO. Until now, thought this was all sort of a joke, but when you make me cry, you show me you are no better than the hundreds of racist trolls I have been dealing with since my post of April 22nd. NO GODDAMN DIFFERENT.

Wasted fucking space.

Daisy said...

And even more unfortunately the old saying goes that you can't teach a
student who isn't willing to learn, so as of this moment please take
it as read that I am no longer going to self identify as an "ally",
considering that you guys will undoubtably drag the term through the
mud,


What PRECISE ally work have you DONE, RM?

I am willing to list all the groups I have been affiliated with since the McGovern campaign in 1972. What EXACTLY have you done?

I expect to see:

A list of political prisoners of color you have 1) worked to free 2) gathered petitions for 3) collected bail money for 4) bailed out personally 5) got a new trial for.

How many times have you been subpoena'd to turn state's evidence on groups such as the Progressive Labor Party and the Socialist Workers Party? (since you're such a Marxist and all) And since you're an anarchist, we'll throw in the Yippies, Overthrow, IWW and Fifth Estate. (Of course, you HAVE been sending your spare change to Fifth Estate, to keep it in print, right?)

List of all anti-racist demonstrations you have been in, please, at least the top 10? Number of times clubbed or busted? Teargassed? I lost a job for being on TV in one such instance, what have you sacrificed exactly?

We'll start there, asshole. Let's see if you even get past my first requirement. I doubt you've ever SEEN a state penitentiary, much less BEEN INSIDE or visited anyone there. But hey, you're the big activist, let's hear what-all you've DONE.

You seek to erase people with less education and status than you have, RM, and how is this progressive again?

belledame222 said...

Seriously, how can we miss you if you won't go away?

By the way, kactus isn't dead, as of last we checked in at least, couple of weeks ago, I think. Nice of you to be concerned, though.

Is there some particular reason you're trying to antagonize everyone in the entire world? I mean, does this actually help? I figure it must do somehow or you wouldn't keep doing it; just not really clear how it works exactly. Just sort of idly curious, you understand. Really, don't answer if it's any trouble. I probably won't read most of it anyway, to be perfectly honest. MEGO. Especially the one with the monocle.

Ravenmn said...

I do and have failed in ally work in the past and I expect to do so in the future. We're all trained to be ignorant about this stuff. My practice these days is to try to catch myself before I fuck up; admit it when I do fuck up; and to find better ways to apologize correct for my fuckups.

If you have a specific instance of my failure at ally work you can point to, feel free to say so here or at my blog. I'm a big girl. I can take it.

Your point:

"You can't deconstruct privelage in a secret little exclusive group because privelage works by it being kept invisible - if your attempt to tackle privealge doesn't consist of being LOUD and being PUBLIC rather than polite and private it WILL fail, because of what privealge is and how it works."

If a group is formed for the purpose of overcoming privilege and creating a more democratic and equal world, I totally agree.

My experience has been that every so-called non-hierarchical group I've worked with includes people who refuse to recognize their own privilege and power and use membership in the group as an excuse. Heart does this all the time, which I took a stand on here.

My membership in a secret group and my commitment to its privacy results in the inevitable: those excluded will dislike it and question its purpose.

I can assert that the group is not about establishing a new power elite or "an unhealthy and uncritical social cohesion" or killing cute little kittens for sport. But why would you believe me? You can make up names and evil motivations with impunity.

As for your specific attacks on individuals here who I consider friends, all I'm seeing from you are random, unlinked accusations. I've never seen Daisy get upset about a hyphen. I'm the typographer; that's more likely to be me.

Ravenmn

belledame222 said...
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Octogalore said...

Hmm, so your picking apart others' phrasings is OK but when yours do things like insult people inaccurately, it's just "speaking vernacular English?" I love it.

Also, I don't know that you're qualified to teach Ally 101. A number of POC read your blog and I have not noticed any comments from any of them seconding your statements about how lousy all of us are as allies. If that were to occur, I'm sure we'd all listen. Appointing yourself the speaker for folks who know how to make their own opinions known, or to back you up if they agreed, doesn't strike me as all that impressive an ally technique.

Lisa Harney said...

Kactus is alive as of just a couple of days ago. She hasn't been posting on her blog - she has other things going on which are her business to disclose or not as she chooses.

So, it would be polite to remove the statement that she might possibly be dead. Gossip and rumors being what they are and all.

Lisa Harney said...

For that matter, Daisy's history of activism deserves a lot better than characterizing her as a radical in a Che Guevera shirt.

offourpedestals said...

RM, I thought you said you were going to come back and be awesome. This ain't awesome. You've made good points but buried 'em under what appears to be a cold fuckton of personal animosity.

I don't get it. I don't get why, especially after that O RRY owl business, you're attempting fauxronic use of the word "chink" to refer to a woman who's part Chinese. (That had better not turn into a rant from you about how I dropped by to defend Ren's behavior, by the way, because that is not what I'm doing. I can and do think you're both wrong in different ways and in different situations. Ren's treatment of Katie sucked. So does calling Ren a chink suck. We can debate degree and kind of the suckage, but forget any debate about intent in usage; you'll be having that one on your own.)

I don't get why you had to slam Daisy in a way that's frankly bullshit.

I really don't get why you threaten to bring down the hax0rz wrath on folks--for what, RM? For what? What's that going to accomplish? You're going to use existing power structures to WHAT exactly? Deface blogs to fight racism and capitalism? I'm being dead earnest with you when I repeat: I don't get it.

And yet I get your objections here. Fuck, I agree with some of them, or I'd at least like to hash out ideas with you regarding them--but again, you hide all that at the bottom of a bucket of mud for slinging, and you don't even cursorily check for accuracy before you throw it, and I'm back to "why?" again. Because this:

Because you have far more social capital than I can bring to bear, and you have more social captial than I am willing to accumulate to fight you all.

Doesn't really cut it. "Social capital?"--They keep blogs. And an email list, I guess, which I had issues with too but come the fuck on, now, this is into cheap sloganeering territory: "I took down an email list for Marxism and all I got was this lousy t-shirt."

I don't think you're at all wrong for objecting to groups or to behaviors or to hierarchies or to any of that. You might not be wrong about the social capital thing, even, God knows it's equally likely I am, and DAMN I do not like to hear you're feeling dehumanized and dismissed. If you don't like feeling that way, why are you whipping it on so many others now? How does that help anything?

By the way, Pinko Feminist Hellcat is "best buddies" with X? I don't think so, RM, and that's the gentlest I can put that. The link to me, eh--I lol'ed. By all means, flatter me by thinking you know me. Don't read any posts about my needing a break and take 'em at face value or anything, as if when I say I want time off to listen more and talk less, that might be in fact exactly what I mean.

But this is just what I'm talking about, this smearing-with-broad-brush stuff that doesn't do a fucking thing except make a few people roll their eyes hard and a few others actively hurt and upset. It's pointless and not awesome. I wish you'd reconsider doing it, and I'm not one to plead for civility as a rule, so I hope you don't brush this off as just me dancing the Hugo-rella in your general direction, because no. Not what I'm saying.

I'm saying if you're about creating space for people of color to be treated as equals, this didn't do that, from what I can gather, and damn it, you can do that, I've seen you do that, so maybe do that.

belledame222 said...
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belledame222 said...
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Renegade Evolution said...

and just for the sake of clarification...I'm part Mongolian, not Chinese, and the other horrible Asian on the thread in question is Korean...couple of Russians who also use the phrase in question too.

And not that it matters, I'm sure, but the evil list? Politics? Hummm. My politics match up with exactly no ones there for the most part, and the stuff discussed there by myself and such..."I had this annoying conversation with my mom, my brother is getting divorced, last night at work was..." you know, maybe stuff I feel like getting off my chest but not telling the whole world about for whatever reason...oh, and exchanging recipes and "hey, have you seen this movie?"

That's some hardcore shit right there. And the hacker threat? As this is not the first time something along those lines has been thrown out, duely noted and saved for posterity.

I mean hey, I am also on a list that is just sex workers, where we discuss everything from daily work issues to upcoming events to memorial services for deceased people in our trade to law cases. I suppose that's another strike and step towards the gallows too...'cause folk, especially those who may have said some unpopular things don't need or deserve places where they can discuss their lives without everything being up to scrutiny or getting attacked for it, right?

R. Mildred said...

Uh, belle you do remember that ren has also claimed to be jewish. now I could go on a long rant about how racial categories should not be used a step, or as a commodity to be waved around in the face of criticism unless it is very very neccesary.

But I shan't. In fact I'm going to go a head and pretend that she hasn't claimed stake to quite a lot of we-sha-sha over the last year or so, that way we don't bring in too much butthurt for my poor abused brain to handle at any one time.

and it's really not your damn call to say who is and isn't "real" enough when you aren't at all, mm?

So you're seriously saying that Ren is:

A) an asian american woman who has lived and experienced life as an asian american woman in a white racist society her entire life.

B) that all that means she is in a position of authority as an asian woman to be able to tell women who are, shall we say less dubiously asian, what they are allowed to find offensive even though no one would seriously assume that Kenneth Eng isn't being a huge racist asshole if he declares that other Asian Americans aren't allowed to find his genocidal rantings offensive, when yes, yes they are, actually. despite the fact that he's far more asian than ren could possibly be.

C) That being able to accept B as fact is not a platonic ideal of privelage that only makes sense as long as you uncritically accept ideas put forth to apologise and support a racist society.

D) You also, by focusing on just the "ren's not asian" problem that seem to be implying, and do correct me here, that we also must accept that the entire conversation wherein a bunch of people (who by a freakish coincidence happen to be more caucasian than the people who originate from near the mountain range itself) discuss whether a less dubiously asian woman is allowed to feel offense is not a thing, itself coming out of such ridiculous privelage, that any supposed "asianness" of Ren's is meaningless in the face of her clear and provable social conditioning as a white woman.

E) And of course that we also ignore the use of the PC dogwhistle, which is never good.

Now let me make clear, rather than hoping it's implicit in what I'm saying, that what's sticking in my graw is not ONE or TWO issues, it's all of them, mushed together into a single whole, then compounded by this defensiveness and these increasingly inane attempts to pretend that she didn't do anything wrong, that any of the other commenters in that thread didn't do anything wrong.

In short, I see a bunch of people, forming a group that happens to be organized in such a way that it is a potential breeding ground for bullying and similar things befitting something so ludicously highschool.

And you seem detirmined to make the difference between you guys and Marcotte** NOT that you can own your own shit and grow and learn from your mistakes, but that you aren't quite up to the same scale of atrocious asshollery. Which is lame, becuase if you're gonna be assholes, you might as well be huge epic assholes who can pee their names into the clouds.

Because while it's great that ren has actually stopped using the specific term, why am I seriously having to explain that it is impossible for ren - or ANYONE ELSE - to be asian *enough* to pull that crap. She acted out of privelage, and she's very very white, and in acting out of white privelage she tried to do something that she could only do because of an existing system of societal racism.

This is not good enough, and quite a few of you don't seem to get that and have been quite happy to enable your peers' crappy behavior, so what should I do? Wait for a miracle, that you'll magically learn what you should already know by now, or whack you upside the heads when you stumble and insult you and keep insulting you if that's what it takes to get you to pay attention to my fucking arguements and not my grammar?

Give me another option people.

R. Mildred said...

I don't get why, especially after that O RRY owl business, you're attempting fauxronic use of the word "chink" to refer to a woman who's part Chinese.

Well the short answer is that while Ren is freakishly pale, she's not "japanese goth" pale, and calling a cracker "chink" is quite different from calling an asian american the same.

Which of course isn't same thing as it being *okay*, you realise.

The long answer is that no that sort of crap isn't acceptable and I'm not entirely sure why this post is up - this should still be a draft and I only logged in to do some polishing and to then get started on the intersectional privelage post.

hmmm... I think I'll blame the cat. everyone will have to save their anger for a second or two *zebedees and boings away*

Renegade Evolution said...

Oh please..."I COULD hack your accounts isn't creepy???" Also, for the record, I've said numerous times, aside from being Jewish, which hey, a lot of people are...I pretty much say I'm white/generally seen as white, but yep, occasionally, people note something else...and you know..I wasn't the one to bring up my whatever part of Asian on that thread, so I hardly used it. Now, you can call me a kike if it makes you feel better, but here's the deal, RM...I've never claimed to know what Asian women face in life. I put up a thread discussing a phrase. Wooo, fuckin' creepy. You, cryptic samurai, have NO room to talk about creepy. None whatsoever. Random attacks, treating anyone and everyone who does not agree with you in totality like shit, or idiots, or both, or whatever else gets your verbal rocks off, illusions to criminal and threatening actions you could take against people, some of whom have already been threatened with that sort of shit, and taking ZERO responsibilty for anything...why? Because you're angry? You have money problems? Join the fucking crowd.

Now, you're always cracking on how no one else can read and how thick they are, but hear this: Try reading what other people have actually said and not projecting all your shit all over it, then realize gee, maybe R.Mildred doesn't know everything and comes off like a fucking jerk jumping all over other people when A) they are down, or B) they've had it. If "my life is shitty right now" isn't an excuse for us, it sure as hell isn't an excuse for you either. And guess what, I can do what you seem incapable of, I can appoligize for hurting other people. You, in your quest to be righteous and correct and whatever else, cannot. And THAT says something. Yeah, and it's creepy.

Renegade Evolution said...

Oh, and RM...sometimes I'm pale, sometimes I'm not...Stormy tried this whole same line of "Wooo, SKIN TONE...TOTAL lock down on people's race" crap last week...between that and the threat thing, I gotta wonder, what play book are you running here? And racism? Listen, RM, don't throw around "Chink" and "Cracker" and all that other shit.

Ah, whatever. You're racism is showing pretty good right now.

R. Mildred said...

As this is not the first time something along those lines has been thrown out, duely noted and saved for posterity.

Oh honey, I don't make threats, I know you would just dare me to go through with it anyway so I'd just go ahead and crack your account without warning or without neccesarily letting you know I'd done it - I'm capable of it, but wouldn't unless it was really neccesary.

Which it isn't. I do get what a violation that would be, and thus I have ethical reasons against it, more to the point I'm not seriously under the impression that what is being said in the group is worth it.

If a group is formed for the purpose of overcoming privilege and creating a more democratic and equal world, I totally agree.

My experience has been that every so-called non-hierarchical group I've worked with includes people who refuse to recognize their own privilege and power and use membership in the group as an excuse. Heart does this all the time, which I took a stand on here.

My membership in a secret group and my commitment to its privacy results in the inevitable: those excluded will dislike it and question its purpose.

I can assert that the group is not about establishing a new power elite or "an unhealthy and uncritical social cohesion" or killing cute little kittens for sport. But why would you believe me? You can make up names and evil motivations with impunity.


Actually the interesting thing is that I'm not actually that het up about hte group or not being admitted ot hte gorup, the toruble is how the groups is organised, and the clear fact that no one in the grouph as thought things through.

For instance: you don't need the very existence of the group to ever have been a secret - more over you don't need to keep membership of the group secret either.

I can sort of see why you might think you have to, but open knowledge of membership within the group neither opens up the group's members to abuse from without, as would happen with say a rape survivor safe space, nor reveals anything more about the members than would already be known - other than convey your membership within the group, which if the group really isn't doing anything spectacularly filthy shouldn't be a problem.

On the flip side, doing both of those also makes accusations that it's a secret cabal look even sillier than they do otherwise.

That's why I said in one of the other posts, "if you can't do it in the open don't do it" - there's such a thing as an open conspiracy, and if you have to choose between the two, always pick the open conspiracy, it's better.

More to the point you don't even need to have the blogswarm mechanism to be linked into the group - which was the problem with the Kossacks' Townhouse, it was, like your group was at one point, designed to help "organise" posting on certain subjects and then Jerome Armstrong got investigated for dodgy stock trading so Kos and amrstrong put out a gag order for the other members to try and supress it. Now think of what your group could do to a POC in your group if you all had a massive privelage heamorrage at them... it's a mechanism I wouldn't trust white people in general with because I know what we're capable of. Until Marcotte invents a new depth to sink to at least.

In fact, again, the blogswarm mechanism that belle sold the group to M and Donna with, would work better if it was more open and people who were not neccesarily part of your group could A) submit links and B) receive links.

One of the reasons I didn't want to be back yet was because I hadn't decided on a final list of ways to oranize such a thing - clearly it would be useful, and clearly people are interested in it - the question is how do you make it both decentralized enough to be unabusable, reactive enough to be useful and not turn it into a giant pit of spam in the process?

Maybe I could have been more specific, but then again I sitll don't think it's anything other than deeply disengenuous to assume that I just have personal animosity towards book clubs.

AND AS FOR YOU DAISY, You sanctimonious ass badger! I got only one thing to say to you:

Sorry. the insults were unneccesary and I here by submit myself to any mercies you care to show, the same to Ilyka and people who are not belle, ren or octo, or Amanda or anyone else who really seems to have earned the insults basically.

Now having said that we could still do the activist penis measuring thing, however my measure is, as a side effect of your having a couple of decades on me, generally one based on heart, and on willingness to put one's life between the innocent and society's desolations.

Also known as the "we meet in person, strip naked and compare scars" metric. I've done what good I was able to do, I have personally saved a few people's lives, I have been set on fire a total of 5 times (only one of which was my own fault), stabbed with knives twice, both times while protecting rape survivors from their abusers, worked with the Burma UK compaign, helped political torture victims get into and stay in this country, yadayada battle of seattle yadayada fundraising yadayada bail yadayada.

I have even personally broken the knees of a rapist and child molester - but then again, dad was making such a scene at my brother's wedding...

But you've probably "scored" more political prisoners having been freed, so...you win? Your penis is enormous and cums only icecream?

Renegade Evolution said...

"Oh honey, I don't make threats, I know you would just dare me to go through with it anyway so I'd just go ahead and crack your account without warning or without neccesarily letting you know I'd done it - I'm capable of it, but wouldn't unless it was really neccesary.

Which it isn't. I do get what a violation that would be, and thus I have ethical reasons against it, more to the point I'm not seriously under the impression that what is being said in the group is worth it."

And that, my dear, is creepy...right there.

R. Mildred said...

And that, my dear, is creepy...right there.

At last! We find something to agree upon! Break out the harps diskordian and let's dance!

Renegade Evolution said...

nah, i'm sick of you stepping on my feet.

Daisy said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ravenmn said...

"....the blogswarm mechanism that belle sold the group to M and Donna with...."

This looks a lot like fishing. You keep posting your guesses as to what happens within the group and hope that one of us denies it? Why the emphasis on M and Donna being mindless followers of Belle? Aren't I just as capable of being her drone?

"the toruble is how the groups is organised, and the clear fact that no one in the grouph as thought things through."

You know this how? How does this argument differ from certain rad feminists who say women only wear high heels or shave because they haven't thought things through? Is there seriously no sensible explanation that you can consider?

"... there's such a thing as an open conspiracy, and if you have to choose between the two...."

Can you point to any evidence of a conspiracy? Have the people you assume are in the group created blog swarms on a regular basis? Can you predict that every time Belle posts on a subject, she will immediately be followed by me and Daisy and Ren? If that really were our purpose, you'd think we'd be able to do a better job of it.

Finally, I don't understand why you keep making accusations against individuals on this thread with no linking and no clue as to what got you so angry. You have yet to be specific about anyone's actions except for Ren. She has responded. You two disagree. It happens.

I get that you are angry. I hope you feel better soon.

R. Mildred said...

Is there seriously no sensible explanation that you can consider?

Well the only sensible reason you'd link all those things (which are the things I know for a fact exist, because Belle mentioned them in the emails BL posted, and M and Donna and few of the rest of you confirmed that) in to a single secret... group, is because the person who organized it wanted an authoritarian power structure he/she could exploit and control.

Assuming belle is incompetent is the better option than the "belle is just a egomaniacal NPD sufferer with control issues" alternative.

However, the most likely alternative is that belle is both slightly incompetent and has a small amount of need for a very specific, and authoritarian, power structure that she has a not small amount of influence in.

So I'm an optmist who assumes she's just incompetent, shoot me already.

belledame222 said...

Okay. On the -slightest- possibility that anyone I still respect is reading here and for -some- reason hasn't come to the -really obvious- conclusion about all this and, well, you, wrt the -group-, okay:

No. You are mistaken. Completely. Utterly. Not even wrong. Fuck knows why. At first I thought you were somehow getting this from BL, who was already spouting half-babble for her own dubious purposes. Then I figured you were getting this from what you -read- at BL's. Now it appears you are getting this from an incoherent mixture of what you read at BL's, what it suits you to think you read at BL's, some conflation with Kos, Amanda's group, some other group which I don't know and don't give a shit about and never did, the book club which is neither my idea nor -private-, and the messages being channeled from your fillings. Some goddam thing. Do not know. Do know care. Do not -want.-

But, for the peanut gallery, such as it may be at this point:

It is not. a damn. political group. mkay? It is there -primarily- to give mutual pleasure to the people who gather and converse there, same as any other damn -gathering.- And no, you aren't entitled to crash any RL parties -either,- Maleficent. (As per the bizarro hacking business: please to creepy crawl the hell away now, thank you).

No blogswarms. No -plots-. No plan. No vanguarding. And yes, people do TALK ABOUT political and online things, seeing as how that's how most of us met and all, and have dwamas, yes, on account of people do. But that doesn't mean we're into -crashing the gates.- And, while there are indeed actual Marxists in there--it is on the whole a rather diverse group, point of fact--speaking only for myself, there's only one Marx providing any sort of ideological organizing point at all.

And if you don't like it, Mildred, you can, as already threatened/promised a zillion times now, leave the Interwebs, in a huff. And if you don't want to leave in a huff, you can leave in a minute and a huff; and if you don't want to leave in a minute in a huff, you can leave in a taxi.

Or, you know, do whatever. But, personally?

"Go, and never darken my towels again."

Enjoy your pony; the optimist -does- hope there's one buried in all of that -somewhere-, yes.

belledame222 said...

-glances over, falls over laughing-

Right, right, speaking of um -slips.- Well, yes, indeed, my bad, there. All right, then:

"PLEASE creepy crawl the hell away now, thank you."

There. Much better.

AND finally:

-plonk-

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Hey! where's the third comment! I demand that you do in three comments what most people can do with zero! Srsly, what's the point of even letting you comment on my blog if you're not going to post a guzillion comments that say nothing? tch!

It is not. a damn. political group. mkay?

well that's what I'm saying! I mean, come on, it only started as a political group, and it's only been trying, for about a year, to operate as a political group, but that's all in the past except for the people in the group who think differently of course. Not that it's an authoritarian power structure that allows you to dictate what the members can and can't do.

So it's not a political group, except for when it is, and it doesn't engage in blogswarms (or firehoses, or whatever you SNL writers are calling it these days) except for the times it has.

And I'm ignoring the rather intrigueing way that the nature of the group changes quite remarkably depending on who you ask, and how, and the way it shifts from political organisation to tea party back to political organisation depending on which aspect of it gets mocked at any particular moment.

And if we then factor the not inconsiderable amount of time you spent publicly mocking the radfems for the sort of groups you're now asserting the group is... So you're either a huge hypocrite, or are just lying, and you're not even bothering to try and make your lies match up with each other.

How's about you all stick badges or some sort of warning label on your blogs so that those of us who don't want particularly to involve ourselves with your monocle club can avoid you, and know who to tear apart when you do fuck up hugely?

If it's just a silly, meaningless social club, where's the harm in that?

And I'm glad we've absolved ren, and you and octogalore of all your sins already, mighty white of...yourselves?

Renegade Evolution said...

RM...if i need your forgiveness, I'll be sure to shoot myself first. Which is to say...I own up to my shit, that works for me. You? Hell, I don't even know what the hell is up with you anymore, but you still seem to be under the impression that other people can say contraversial or potentially hurtful things on occasion, maybe not handle it 100 perfect and wooo, time for the slaughter, but when you do it, Hey, no big, because you are the super special super perfect ally who never says offensive fucked up shit, or when she does, well, she's just so super special and perfect that it doesn't matter. I mean, Hey, we can all me out for saying something that no one, no matter how Asian, should say, but you can throw out chink, cracker, and whatever the fuck else crosses your mind because your special, so its okay. Pfft. Whatever. I hardly need to be absolved of shit by you, because you've proven yourself time and time to be quite a caustic, insensitive, rude and random human being...kinda like you accuse everyone else of being...ironic that.

So yeah, have a grand old time screaming to the world about the sins and misdeeds of others while ignoring the shit on your own shoes. As they say, whatever gets you through the night.

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While difficult to read, your strike-through post is great. I for one, appreciate a little dialectic vernacular. Sarah Palin could learn a thing or two at Cuntensquirten. Thanks for your blog and your nod to me on your blogroll.

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